Curse

Neo-LD · Nov 12, 2006, 11:51 PM // 23:51

Why are people talking about ZB as an anti spike skill? It clearly is not meant to be used for that purpose. If you try to save with it, then there is a chance that it will land, and if that happens it will undoubtedly be free.. but there is a much bigger chance that the target will die after you start to cast but before you are finished, which results in a death and 10 wasted energy. Trying to save with Gift is roughly the same game except that you are throwing 5 every time instead of gambling between 0 and 10... but either method carries the huge chance for death so I dont see what the big argument is anyways. Both a ZB monk and a BL monks are best advised to save with either preprotted PS/SB -> RoF -> Gift, or at the very least just a reactive RoF -> Gift if you didnt see it coming and had no preprot.

The only argument here should be about whether BL or ZB is more useful against "pressure" for lack of a better term. ZB is only good if you can get its condition to activate most of the time. Considering how dangerous it is to have one or more people near or below 50% hp, most of the time you wont get ZB's condition to work. If you intentionally let people get low, you are eventually going to take unneeded causualties because they get finished by an opportunistic mini-spike while you let them get low. Therefore, ZB will only ever be good if many people are near or below 50% and there wasnt anything you could do to prevent that from happening in the first place. At that point ZB's condiiton will activate most of the time. However, how good is an elite that only functions well when your team is getting their asses kicked? Sure, it can keep you in the game for a while, and by that logic it might seem good...

But you are playing a dangerous game. Having so many teammates at low hp means you are just one false step away from a game-ending wipe. ZB Humilitied? gg. Heal Party distracted? gg. Unlucky adren spike? gg. ZB interupted? gg. Miss the +10 condition on ZB once or twice? gg. Wouldnt you rather have an elite which worked well all the time, instead of only just before your team gets annhilated?

scamPOR · Nov 13, 2006, 01:21 AM // 01:21

Does WoH become at least semi feasible with holy haste? Or is the problem that then you lose the utility of a prot hybrid?

Thomas.knbk · Nov 13, 2006, 07:38 AM // 07:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zuranthium

Then PLEASE let me know how you can stop spikes and keep your team alive as a Blessed Light monk! I'd be very interested in hearing.

By preprotting with PS/SB perhaps? Blight had very little to do with spikes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scamPOR

Does WoH become at least semi feasible with holy haste? Or is the problem that then you lose the utility of a prot hybrid?

Yes, that's exactly the problem

scamPOR · Nov 13, 2006, 09:47 AM // 09:47

I see ZB as useful in smaller fights where you can semi control damage taken with shield of absorb / ps and sb.... but honestly it's not smart to rely on v50% and missing it a few times = boned.

suiraCLAW · Nov 13, 2006, 06:13 PM // 18:13

About all that bias about ZB:

ZB is only worth it in a few builds/situations:
- in an extremely offensive build wich "only" (don't take this literally, please) defense is to kill their team before they can kill yours.
- When, for some reason, it just doesn't make sense to bring even more hex/condition removal...
- If your build uses a N/Mo spiker (in a rainbow spike for example) and needs the healing more than any condition/hex removal (again, this won't happen often).
- ...

offcourse, ZB is crap (in comparison with other monk elites) if you can't use it in these situation/builds (wich is in like 98% of the cases).

Other advantages:
- In a build with pets but without death necro, it can be usefull to use ZB on pets wich health is below 50%.
- Infuse health + ZB can be interesting (as stated somewhere else in this thread/forum).

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomas.kbnk

Wouldnt you rather have an elite which worked well all the time?

Actually I can't think of a decent monk elite that works completely (= if all conditions are met) all the time...

BTW: what about renaming this thread to "Nightfall Monk Elite Analysis"?

Riotgear · Nov 13, 2006, 06:58 PM // 18:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by suiraCLAW

BTW: what about renaming this thread to "Nightfall Monk Elite Analysis"?

Considering monks are generally the backbone of a team, and it's already established that your team should have several, it shouldn't be surprising people are analyzing them the most.

That and most other classes have already finished this discussion:
Warriors: YAA ftw. Or Eviscerate.
Rangers: Rampage as One ftw.
Eles: Searing Flames ftw.
Dervish: Avatar of Melandru + Wearying Strike ftw. Wounding Strike ftw.
Assassin: Moebius Strike ftw.
Ritualist: Reroll as Paragon ftw.

Bankai · Nov 13, 2006, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riotgear

Considering monks are generally the backbone of a team, and it's already established that your team should have several, it shouldn't be surprising people are analyzing them the most.

That and most other classes have already finished this discussion:
Warriors: YAA ftw. Or Eviscerate.
Rangers: Rampage as One ftw.
Eles: Searing Flames ftw.
Dervish: Avatar of Melandru + Wearying Strike ftw. Wounding Strike ftw.
Assassin: Moebius Strike ftw.
Ritualist: Reroll as Paragon ftw.

You're missing Reaper's sweep on the Dervish.

Byron · Nov 13, 2006, 10:54 PM // 22:54

I've tried to digest the meat of this thread, so far as monk elites go. My general impression is that the meta has yet to stabilize - it took a while for Blessed light monks to come around after factions. People were still balking at the 10 energy cost and the inability to bring e-drain months after factions was released.

Gift of health has really made it possible to bring an elite with narrow usage, like RC or Divert. I think that's been established already.

Most of the ability realted to monking now comes to preventing damage rather than healing it. This means quick and complete removal of conditions and hexes, pre-protting, and passive protection in its many forms. That also means a new role for the secondary classes of monks: self-defense rather than energy management. That might seem like common sense, but I remember a time when a WoH/infuse Mo/me (likely with a sup rune) was standard in a GvG backline.

I'll try to put the established philosophy (uhm, mostly JR and Tommy) into skillbar terms.

Skill 1: damage control. (typically Reversal of fortune)
Skill 2: condition removal (RC, or whatever your favorite is)
Skill 3: Gift of health (or equivalent: Glimmer, Zealous benediction)
Skill 4: spike save (PS/SB)
Skill 5: signet of devotion
Skill 6: utility removal (divert, blessed light, holy veil, purge signet, mending touch)

Skills 7 and 8 depend heavily on the first six, and the skill of the monk. It could be another utility removal, or it could be two self-defense skills.

GvG monks have come a long way, IMO. It seems that what I call the "utility removal" slot is what's causing most problems in this thread. And I think those 6 slots pretty well cover monk builds atm. /cry for guardian.

Quote:

Originally Posted by zuranthium

Yes...so you cast ZB and they get a huge heal for free. It's not like you should wait until they are below 50% to cast the spell.

You're really depending on a mediocre enemy adren spike. A solid deep wound spike with shatter enchant, lightning orb, and/or final thrust can bring a target down in well under .75s, assuming you have an absolutely flat reaction time. A better way to do it is RoF->ZB, or better, PS->RoF->ZB. If you can hear the eviscerate land, you may be too late. Just use ZB where you would normally use GoH, IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by suriaCLAW

Actually I can't think of a decent monk elite that works completely (= if all conditions are met) all the time

Glimmer of light?

Riotgear · Nov 14, 2006, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bankai

You're missing Reaper's sweep on the Dervish.

Bah, that's not the point. :P

Zuranthium · Nov 14, 2006, 05:12 AM // 05:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Byron

You're really depending on a mediocre enemy adren spike. A solid deep wound spike with shatter enchant, lightning orb, and/or final thrust can bring a target down in well under .75s, assuming you have an absolutely flat reaction time. A better way to do it is RoF->ZB, or better, PS->RoF->ZB. If you can hear the eviscerate land, you may be too late. Just use ZB where you would normally use GoH, IMO.

Well, yes, you always want to pre-prot.

The point is that a good spike WILL drop someone below 50% even with that protection. The orginal argument against ZB was that you'd almost never get the energy bonus when, in fact, you usually will. The risk of possibly spending 5 more energy than if you used GoH is more than made up for by you actually saving 5 energy 90% of the time AND the fact that ZB is a bigger heal which better ensures your target will live through the spike (whereas I've definitely had times when Reversal + Gift still wasn't enough to save somebody from dying).

I've been running a ZB + Divert monk backline and it's working great. If I changed the ZB it would be to a Boon monk; I'm not seeing any NR out there so that might even be the best option considering how the Paragon we run makes up for the nerfed E-management that Boons used to rely on.

Neo-LD · Nov 14, 2006, 06:10 AM // 06:10

Decided to give ZB another chance so I used it for a bit today. Hated every single moment of it. Getting the ZB to trigger was an exercise in futility. So many times I just sat around waiting for the targets to get low enough, so many times people that I let sit low were spiked or nearly spiked out. So many times I wanted a big heal/removal... only to realize, "oh wait, I took BL off my bar. I have this useless ZB instead". To top it all off, the desired target must be very much under 50% to actually get the +10. Yea, so two thumbs down. Hate hate hate.

scamPOR · Nov 14, 2006, 06:15 AM // 06:15

We've played around with it on a 3rd monk that is smite / prot for gank support... I have to say I think it has mixed results. The +e seems really buggy I've had it trigger @ 55% and not trigger @ ~40%... so idk.

I Brother Bloood I · Nov 14, 2006, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Neo u need to just slap prot spirit / spirit bond on and wait till they go down. This way they wont get owned while getting lower at the same time. Also id like to point out that the infuse + ZB doesnt work even if u have odd health. Real bummer though i liked the idea.

Zui · Nov 14, 2006, 06:27 AM // 06:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

Decided to give ZB another chance so I used it for a bit today. Hated every single moment of it. Getting the ZB to trigger was an exercise in futility. So many times I just sat around waiting for the targets to get low enough, so many times people that I let sit low were spiked or nearly spiked out. So many times I wanted a big heal/removal... only to realize, "oh wait, I took BL off my bar. I have this useless ZB instead". To top it all off, the desired target must be very much under 50% to actually get the +10. Yea, so two thumbs down. Hate hate hate.

Absolutly agreed.

LightningHell · Nov 14, 2006, 06:32 AM // 06:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Brother Bloood I

Neo u need to just slap prot spirit / spirit bond on and wait till they go down. This way they wont get owned while getting lower at the same time. Also id like to point out that the infuse + ZB doesnt work even if u have odd health. Real bummer though i liked the idea.

Shatter Enchantment and its ilk often accompany a spike.

Zuranthium · Nov 14, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neo-LD

DTo top it all off, the desired target must be very much under 50% to actually get the +10.

???

I haven't seen problems with this? I've been playing the Divert monk but the times I ran ZB, nothing like that happened?

Bankai · Nov 14, 2006, 07:51 AM // 07:51

It's because the Divine favor bonus is applied before it checks whether the target is below 50%. So depending on how much you have in divine favor, your target has to have lower health than 50%.

Seamus Finn · Nov 14, 2006, 09:00 AM // 09:00

A big problem with ZB is that you instinctively use it where a GoH is needed. Since ZB begs for a high prot attrib, and also that its very similar to Gift in the role it fills(bringing a big heal to the prot line), I wouldn't see gift on the bar. As a result, you will be taking the hit on energy and feeling it. Against a pure spike, it's probably better than gift when used as a Blight would HAVE to use Gift. But against pressure with say adren spike, things can get awful messy and ZB becomes unreliable.

Ensign · Nov 14, 2006, 09:31 AM // 09:31

Zealous Benediction is an awesome arena elite. The damage is much more controllable in that environment. I don't know that it's that hot in 8-man, where things are a lot more fast paced and it's much more difficult to get it to trigger.

Peace,
-CxE

dag_nefzen · Nov 14, 2006, 02:37 PM // 14:37

I've been testing Zealous Benediction for the +10 energy condition and I seem to be getting different results to some. The condition has been kicking in before the Divine Favor bonus every time, which means I've only had to be 1 health below 50% for it to trigger with 11 in Divine.

I like it a lot. It's a big, meaty heal in one packet and I've found it good against teams who can put out lots of damage on multiple targets. I never deliberately let people get below 50%, and try and use Sig of Devotion, Reversal and Gift as my main heals, but it definitely bails you out when you're under lots of pressure.